Don’t get us wrong, we love + appreciate the work we get to do here at The Darkest Horse. It’s both complicated and rewarding – in many ways it’s a privilege, BUT it’s also intense labor that requires us to confront difficult truths. 

One of those truths is that our desire to boldly confront systemic racism challenges us to identify ✨NEW✨ ways of working + being, that protect us from further harming ourselves or each other. We strongly believe that work should be cooperative; joining us on this journey will always remain an invitation, never a demand.

Whenever we introduce a new paradigm, we do so not to “fix,” but with the intention of inviting you to shift your attention, shift your action, and shift your practice. This month, we’re inviting you to shift into rest + leisure.  

Shifting into a practice of rest can feel in conflict with working at a startup where we’re all rewarded for working hard (long days, long weeks, long months, long years). And while we all have the capacity to produce and deliver, we want to invite the contemplation and practice of pausing that allows for full-body discernment.

We invite you to let go (even if only momentarily) of the myth that working hard means we are being productive. Instead, we invite you to consider rest to be a vital competency. It’s an ongoing practice we have to learn to do individually, communally and as a society.

Rest is a journey. We invite you to have a growth mindset about your own capacity to rest – not to achieve excellence at rest, but as a means to self-actualize and lean into what care, health, and well-being look/feel like FOR YOU. Remember, where each of us starts is and should be different because we all have different lived experiences that define work and rest.

We aren’t talking about resting with the temporary intention to prepare for more productivity or better ideas. We are talking about resting to be more present to ourselves, to our families, to our communities, to our natural surroundings, to our bodies, or to wherever we experience refuge. Why? Because rest can give rise to new sources of inspiration or capacity for something else that hasn’t yet been centered in your life. And, because we all deserve more of it.

🙏🏾Thank you for stepping into community with us. We are super excited about the deep work we are doing with YOU now and in the months to come.

We send each of you our warmest wishes for rest, reflection, connection, and presence.

See you in 2023!!

Reflection Questions

• How do you define rest or leisure? Is there a difference between the two?
• What are your favorite ways to practice rest or leisure? 
• How do you feel about your current rest practice? When you think about resting, what do you notice feeling in your body?
• What would be one small adjustment you could make to invite a little more rest into your life?

Resources

Rest:

• Listen: “A Word from the Nap Bishop” Interview with Tricia Hersey (Trymaine Lee)
• Read: What’s Next in the Culture of Care (Rest for Resistance)
• Practice: “Rest Life” Guided Meditation (Tricia Hersey)
• Practice: Somatic Centering (Sumitra Rajkumar)
• Practice: “Relaxing Back into Awareness” Meditation (Tara Brach)
• Listen: Sound Healing (Lucia Luminate)
• Listen: Lotus Sound Bath (Douglas Cardwell)
• Listen: Sound Baths for Relaxation (Alice Hu)

Joy + Pleasure: 

• Listen & Groove: The Darkest Horse Winter Solstice Playlist
• Listen: “The Body is Not An Apology” Poem (Sonya Renee Taylor)
• Read: “Pleasure Activism” by adrienne maree brown
• Journal: “Journal of Radical Permission A Daily Guide for Following Your Soul’s Calling” by adrienne maree brown and Sonya Renee Taylor

Holidays:

• Read: How to Navigate Difficult Conversations During the Holiday Season (Very Well Mind)
• Read: Go Where You Are Honored During the Holidays (Rest for Resistance)
• Read: How to Navigate Difficult Conversations with Family over the Holidays (Life by Design Therapy)

Rada Yovovich: Hi, everybody! Welcome to the August installment of our monthly live stream series. The Darkest Horse, your host for today, is a minority and women owned next gen diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility consulting firm based out of what is colonially known as Chicago. We are obsessed with helping the workforce, organizations, communities, really, explore the intersections of radical inclusion, the future of work, emerging technology, and health wellbeing and human potential. And this month, we’re going to spend some time talking about return to work strategies and how do we make them inclusive, trauma informed; recognizing that we’re returning to in-person work in some ways, some folks aren’t, in this post COVID, although we’re really still mid COVID. All of this is just a flowing, and shifting, constant change. Today’s conversation, We’re going to have a really interesting discussion of how do you do that in a way that’s affirming of lots of different folks across various identities, and perspectives, and needs, and worldviews.

We’ve got a couple of awesome guests here. We’ve got our Darkest Horse collaborator, Maya; and Suzi, who is one of our very beloved client, fam, OGs in the crew. So, what we’re going to do, is we’re going to have a conversation. It’s going to be red table talky. We’ll start with our version of introductions, how the Darkest Horse likes to do that. We’ll just transition into a few questions and prompts, but really we’re going to let the conversation flow. Yeah, really excited for this conversation. 

So, I am excited to introduce our guests today. Here at The Darkest Horse, we do not do our intros by talking about our credentials and our titles, the way that so many folks do. Instead, we like to say that, we like to tell you who we are without telling you what we do. So I’ll actually model this. I’ll kick it off. My name is Rada Yovovich . I use she, her pronouns. I’m coming to you, today from the unceded territories of the council of three fires, which is colonially known as Chicago, and identify as a queer, cis, white, mostly able-bodied, I’m actually hearing impaired, woman who has been raised and educated in the U.S.

We like to share those identities because recognizing those things are a big part of understanding how we see the world, how we move through the world, how we are perceived by the world and therefore the voice that we’re coming into the conversation with. 

I’m a white woman in my thirties with long black hair wearing a black top and a green sweater. I’m sitting in a room that has brown walls and there’s some art in there, behind me. 

So next, I’d love to invite Maya to go ahead and introduce yourself. 

Maya Toussaint: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to have this chat with you both. So, my name is Maya Toussaint. I go by the pronouns she, her. The Kanyen’kehà:ka nation is recognized as the custodians of the lands and waters on which I’m located today. Tiohtià:ke, better known as Montreal in Quebec, Canada, is historically known as a gathering place for many first nations. I identify as a black, cis, queer, able-bodied woman born and raised in Canada, of Caribbean born parents from Trinidad. I am a black woman. I’m 40, I’m told I look 25, and I have light pink Afro with a shaved side, huge green and brown glasses, and I’m sitting in my home office surrounded by abstract art and a cat condo. My shirt is an African print with whimsical flowy sleeves.

 Suzi, I kick it off to you.

Suzi Lilley: All right. Thank you, Maya. I’m Susie. My pronouns are she, her. Today, I learned some of the history of where I’m sat today, which is in the colonial name Chicago, via Rada’s description. I am very excited to go away and learn far more about that and the history of where I am today and how it came to be. So, I identify as a white, cis, het, able-bodied woman. I am, as you can probably tell, originally from the United Kingdom. I moved to Chicago in the U.S two and a half years ago. So, very excited to be here. 

For those of you who are visually impaired, I’m in my mid thirties, as I say, a white woman. I’m blonde. I’m wearing my hair up in a very messy bun. I have a nose ring, light pink rimmed glasses. I’m wearing a white top and I’m calling you from my bedroom, so behind me is my bed and a lamp for those of you who can see that. So, thank you. 

Rada Yovovich: Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you, both. I always am just so thankful for folks that just jump in the flow, with the disruptive and sometimes thought provoking ways that we do things here. So, really appreciate y’all doing that and sharing. So, the first question that we like to ask is, just: How are you showing up today, for this conversation? I mean, both what does this conversation about returning to work bring up for you and how are you noticing yourself feeling about having this conversation? So, really anything that you want to share about how you’re arriving is welcome. I can, yeah, invite Suzi to kick us off.

Suzi Lilley: Sure. So, this is definitely very timely. It’s very much on the top of our minds, as we think about this from a business perspective. But, the thing that was really interesting and stood out for me, was that when we started this conversation in our own business and we started using the language that the CDC had provided and what you’re seeing in relevant information and guidance out there, is “return-to-work.” Our people, really, sort of, came forward to say: “Hey, wait a minute. I have been working. Can we call this return-to-office?” And, it was a really important acknowledgement for us to say: “actually, return to work is somewhat implying that for the last year and a half folks haven’t been working, and whilst we acknowledge that it’s definitely not been our usual circumstances as to how we’ve shown up at work; this has been, definitely, a period of time where folks have still continued to deliver, our business is still growing, we’re still thriving. We’re lucky enough to be in that position, but as we think about these strategies and how we apply this thoughtfully and appropriately, this was a really big thing that stood out for us. So, hearing our people say that, has really helped us to think about how we talk about this and really position that as very much returning to the office. I think that’s been a pivotal moment for us, in listening to our people and hearing about the respect for that, and that experience that we’ve just all been going through, collectively as an organization.

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, I love that, thank you. Maya, I’m just gonna go ahead, and over to you.

Maya Toussaint: Yeah, thanks. It’s really interesting, what Suzi says. On my side, I work for an organization where we are absolutely not going back to an office. The company has decided we are now 100% remote, digital by design, and so our headquarters is the internet. Which is pretty cool, but for someone like me, who’s an extra- extrovert, or I sometimes call myself an outrovert, I’m just, kinda like: “What do you mean I can’t touch someone’s arm when we make tea together?” So, the back to office is non-existent and it’s creating a lot of feelings for me. I’m pretty much, kind of, up and down on this. I see the value of it. I see the benefits to the greater work population, on having that flexibility. But, I’m feeling very tired. You know, you ask how we’re feeling, I’m exhausted and I’m not physically doing anything. So, I’m noticing that just kind of sitting in the same spot, having wonderful conversations, but not being able to, kind of, fill my energy tank with humans, which is what I need; has been pretty difficult.

It’s been difficult. 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, yeah. I super appreciate that. I think one of the things that I want to underline in that, is I’ve been very frustrated by some of the narratives about, really, this entire process, the entire pandemic, the lockdown, the working remotely, the re-emerging into the world, the old, normal, the new normal, like all of these pieces. It’s like every step, I’ve been feeling a lot of dissonance with a lot of how people are talking about it. I think that one of the pieces that I hear in what you’re saying, Maya, is that we’re not feeling just one way, right? There’s not just one way to feel about this stuff. So, acting like anybody has a clear solution, or clear needs, or clear ideals, or whatever, even that assumption, I think if I’m inviting, how do we think about this; That’s a big piece for me, trying to release that expectation that there will be clarity. So, I think I’m curious about double clicking on that and inviting a little bit more of that ambiguity in. I think I’ll specifically agree, Maya, with your point about extroversion. I also identify as, like, 3000% extrovert and despite that there are a bunch of ways that I don’t want to go back to the in-person stuff, the way that we used to. There’s so many ways that I actually have found this work to be more supportive. I mean, I definitely agree with you, that I want more human to human interaction and contact and stuff. But, yeah, it just is cutting both ways.

I’m curious, I’ll invite you, Suzi, maybe to share some of that complexity. I think I would be very interested in your personal perspective of what you’re feeling about that, but also sort of what you’re seeing in the organization, as you’re thinking about this next phase. 

Suzi Lilley: Yeah, sure. I think it’s definitely one of those things where the office being cut off personally to me, I’m probably quite similar to you both, in that I fill my energy cup with people, and interaction, and social interactions, so having all of it cut off at once was quite severe in terms of how it felt processing that. I think the instant reaction is: I want it back, and as soon as I can have it back, I’m going to go out all the time, and I’m going to go to the office every day. And, I think as soon as we made the office available to our employees, which was back in June, I felt this, and I think we saw it in our people in terms of the use of the office, nobody’s going. I think the reality is once it’s been opened again, I’m sat here being, like: “ok, well I really wanted that.” But, now I’m actually like: “now I’ve got to put real clothes on, got to actually wash my hair.,” and, actually, as much as I want that human interaction with our folks, it’s like what has now become your routine of how you get up, how you deliver, how you go to work, has all got to shift again. It’s almost like I wasn’t ready for it. And, there’s also so much uncertainty still of, am I putting myself at risk or the people at risk by leaving my house and doing these things every day, and what’s the right amount of time to do these things, and what’s the right way to approach this. I don’t think I’m alone in experiencing those questions and feeling those feelings. Because, we’re seeing that from an organizational point of view, that having the office open, which everybody kind of said: “Hey, go and use it,” hasn’t happened because I think we’re still in a state of flux and experiencing that all over again, as a version of: “okay, so now, what’s my routine and how is that changing?” And, I think it’s interesting, particularly for those who are parents, who are going through this process and thinking: “well, I still kind of have to be around at these times and, actually, as much as I want to be there, the flexibility, this affords me in the other areas of my life. I kind of don’t want to give them up and how do I manage and balance all of that?” So, I think this whole experience is coming back around again, almost in another way as we start to navigate kind of what does normal look like now and how do I put that back into my life in a way that feels comfortable to me, with so many uncertainties that surround it? 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, yeah. I want to underline a couple of things before I pivot to you, Maya. It’s almost like I’m seeing three layers. There’s the layer of the actual, how do we work and what is the future version of that, that really blends what we’ve learned about different types of work, and what works for different folks, and how do we keep that flexibility? That’s almost like an end state. Then, there’s the second layer of the actual change aspect, right? The change and uncertainty. There are a lot of ways that even the shift, even if it’s shifting to something awesome and perfect, that’s still a process. We still have to pay specific attention, not just to designing the solution, but to getting there. I think there’s a third part that’s only starting to peak out in what we’re talking about, but that I think is really important, which is the emotional state that we find ourselves in and the uniqueness of this moment, which I think is also another piece that, maybe, we get to in a second. But, about this pretending that we’re okay and we’re ready, when we’re really still in it in a lot of ways and even in the ways that we’re not in it, we’re still recovering. Then that’s when we say, trauma informed, right, that’s where that piece starts showing up. So yeah, I’m holding those three layers.

Maya, I’m curious, I think when we look at those from your perspective, I would love to hear a little bit more about the story and why it makes sense to go digital only. What that does mean in terms of both the solution piece, the change piece, where maybe it is a little bit less jarring, and then we can shift into that trauma piece, like where are we at and how are we caring for ourselves? 

Maya Toussaint: So, I work at a large tech company. We’re looking to hire over 2000 engineers this year. So 2021, 2021 engineers, cutesy hiring. The benefit of a 100% remote company is that we can now hire anywhere in the world. So, there’s no longer that attachment to the Montreal office and the Toronto office. It’s funny, ‘cause I’m the only Montrealer on my large team, because before you did need to be near the Ottawa and Toronto offices for the type of work we do with the universities, we do in Ontario. Now, we just hired someone from Africa and it’s pretty beautiful to see, in terms of how it can open up a pipeline for diversity. So, there’s a lot of good there, that’s in terms of the mindset. I wasn’t in the rooms with leadership. But, it feels like it’s a: “let’s take an intelligent risk, let’s try something new, and let’s go all in,” this is my interpretation of what was decided. They, pretty early in the pandemic, like early last spring/summer, were one of the first to say, “we’re going digital.” They called it out, and then it was more firmed up when I joined the company a few months ago. But, in terms of the changed management, it was, kind of, a statement and I do think that it has its benefits of, my perception, take it or leave it: I’m sure they know that there’s going to be some folks who love the idea, some who don’t, people we hire are arguably going to be more open to it than the folks who joined earlier, specifically for the office culture. That’s something I was hoping to get. That’s what I thrive on. Then, unfortunately, it’s like, “oh, I’m never going to get to go back to the office.” 

But, in terms of trauma, I think a lot of the things that are coming up for folks are: “I was used to this way, I want to have the option to go back to that and there is no option.” Or, trauma of, “you know, we need to remember that we’re working remotely during a pandemic. We’re not doing remote work,” there is a difference. I keep trying to remind myself that every day, ‘cause I’m just like: “I can’t live like this, I can’t live like this, like how can I continue to just be in this box all day?” Then, there’s not many things to do at night, because delta variant, like there’s always something. Whereas if this were normal, I could probably pop out and have lunch with a friend, I can go do a Cinq-à-Sept as we say, you know, a happy hour in Montreal, but those things aren’t available. So, the tools that we normally have to feel good have been taken away, have been messed with, have been changed. I know for me, that’s the trauma that comes up, that’s the negative feelings that come up. I don’t have the tools that I used to have for my self care. So, I’m, again, really trying to work through that. Talking with friends who are working through that, and everybody has a different self care package, has a different trauma package, has a different change management package. So, how do you even adapt to everyone? I don’t think you can, you can try. But, I feel like that’d be wonderful, but I can’t picture it. 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah. 

Maya Toussaint: I don’t know.

Rada Yovovich: Yeah. Oh, there’s so much in there. I think this is where this piece of, we’re not just at a nine to five, right, that our five to nine also exists and comes in with us. That’s, like, the core of so much of this inclusion work, is recognizing that we don’t just leave whatever exists outside the work space when we enter the workspace, especially when it’s the same space, right? Suzi’s literally in her bedroom, right? And, that context matters and that it recalls back, this question of does work meet every need, right? Like, people try and get a job that is their everything. It’s almost like a monogamous relationship where it’s like, you have to meet every need that I have, because I am committed to you. That becomes especially true when other options, like your happy hours, like your social interactions are, sort of, stripped away. I think, you know, I’ll add in these layers of a life-threatening disease that is highly contagious. I think we all, at least, are one to two degrees away from, certainly, somebody who’s gotten COVID, but many of us, from someone who’s died of COVID, right? Also, that other people have died during this time and a lot of those months were in times when we couldn’t do the grieving practices that are part of many traditions and part of our human need to gather, and recognize, and celebrate, commemorate, grieve in community; and really, I mean, do everything in community. You know, what it means to be in community. So, I think that I hear also specifically what you’re saying, Maya, of, like, there is no solution. I don’t know how we’re going to make a solution. I want to click there and spend a little time, not trying to necessarily say here’s the solution, but be a little bit curious on that. I think Suzi, you’ve talked about how you all are thinking about this, and I think there’s a lot of wisdom in it, so I’d love to pass it to you. 

Suzi Lilley: Yeah. So I think, certainly, as we’ve started to think about: well, what is our strategy for this? How do we support our people, to continue to be their best selves at work and in turn produce their best work? That’s ultimately our philosophy around how we try to think about running our organization, across all facets. So, I think as we’ve started to look at this, I think the one thing we’ve held onto, which you really hit on there, Rada, was that this experience has been traumatic in itself and that we have all in some way been touched by the experience of being in this pandemic, directly or indirectly. And that comes with it, additional facets of what we’ve elevated to the forefront of our business strategy. So, things like mental wellbeing and wellness, are we equipped to support our people psychologically to be safe in our organization, or to have access to tools, support them where they are experiencing periods of loss, anxiousness, depression, et cetera. These things have been extremely heightened, as we know, across the world in terms of our collective human experience of this pandemic. It’s really important. You know, we started a presentation the other day that said “post pandemic plan” and someone had gone in and edited it and crossed out “post” It was like, “we are still in this. Like, still very much feeling the effects of this and living in this period of uncertainty.” I think what came from our collective thoughts, as we look to see what are other businesses doing? What are our competitors doing? What are our clients doing? We have really, sort of, thought: nobody really knows the answer here. We are all taking a risk. I think Maya, you talked about it as: this is an intelligent risk for our business, because this is how our business operates and what we do. And, the business that I represent and work for, is a marketing agency, and a significant amount of what we do, and our philosophy is about making the world a more personal place. So, as we think about how do we do that for our people, how do we do that for our clients, and for their customers? A significant amount of what we do does require in-person collaboration, creative, and innovative thought. So, finding ways to do that has been an experience about bringing this future of work into, actually , right now, here. How do we do that, maintain the quality of what we do for our clients, but also how do we ensure that the people that we hire and the people that we are, essentially, responsible for in our organization, have the best opportunity to do that in a way that makes them feel good about their performance, about their career progression, and what they’re delivering. So, now we’ve started to put it together. We want to enable choice and flexibility to continue as much as we can realistically control. And, because collaboration is so key, we don’t want to create a remote only setting, but it spurred conversation about what is the office for now? What do we actually utilize the office space for? Versus it being, you come to the office to work, what is that space for and how do we create a space that generates purpose? And therefore, what you come in for is not just: “I come in to do my nine to five.” So, that’s really where we’re at in the conversation and I’d love to say we’ve cracked it and we’ve really come up with what this plan is. But, for now it’s open to use as you will, in a safely managed way with relevant restrictions and guidelines for health and safety. But, how we’re thinking about it moving forward, is really what does that office space represent, if we are going to work in a hybrid model.

I think that’s really exciting. It’s daunting, because we don’t know when, and is anyone doing it right? But, we’re in this space of let’s test and fail and let’s see what can come from this. So, I think that’s a bit of a sum of where we’ve got to over the last few months, in terms of all of these conversations, as a business and what it represents to us.

Rada Yovovich: Yeah. I love that so much. You are singing a beautiful song, that the darkest horse loves to sing; which is thinking about these things as design thinking challenges. What I heard you do, is ask a really compelling, ‘how might we,’ question of: how might we reimagine what the actual purpose of this space is, rather than trying to achieve the same objectives that we used to have? This is a big piece that I’m actually excited about, the way that not just the pandemic, but also racial awakening, and social consciousness, and awareness of trauma, and awareness of community, and stuff like that has led us to say: “I think maybe the old way was kind of garbage. Like, I think, maybe, we don’t want to be striving for how things used to be, because it wasn’t really even working for the most privileged folks,” right? It wasn’t even good for the folks at the top, and it certainly wasn’t great for everybody else. So, I really like this invitation to say: “well, let’s actually get back to the why behind, and what’s important about that, and what’s important about space, and how do we actually think about that, as a work community specific and unique to our community.

I also hear this emergent piece, right? This recognition that maybe what’s true today, won’t be true tomorrow. How do we actually build that into the strategy as well? So, you know, put in my usual plug for Adrienne Maree Brown’s “Emergent Strategy,” really showing up to it in that way. I think the other piece that I want to throw in, that I actually saw, Sonya Renee Taylor posted a video, just today, about being in New Zealand, where she lives, and really feeling like her government cares about her, through the way that they’re dealing with COVID, and contact tracing, and stuff like that. It was really very moving. This morning as I was thinking about this event, I was like, that’s another piece. Like, I really want to invite: how do we make sure that it’s really clear to our communities that we care about them, right? That, Before anything else, their health, their wellbeing, is prioritized and is centered in our decision making and making that really transparent.

Suzi Lilley: That is, really, where we’ve seen over the last year and a half, how it’s coming through now, is like the emerging priority of skills and how empathy, and leading with empathy, building and designing your business with empathy has become, really, critical. It’s not a soft skill. It is a core skill of how businesses need to operate and work moving forward. Not just about, for your people. But, it’s about how you continue to grow and be successful. You know, how we attract and hire talent, how we compete in our market, is going to be down to some of these decisions that we make right now and making them with an empathy and trauma informed approach is only going to help us move that further, faster, forward. So, I think that was just the other piece that was a bit of a like: “yep, that’s so important for us right now.” And, I think we’re seeing it spill out in other spaces. 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah. I know, Maya, that you were nodding emphatically. And, I also know that y’all are doing some really interesting stuff with your physical space and really rethinking that. So, I’d love to hear about that and whatever else came up for you, and all that. 

Maya Toussaint: Yeah. No, a lot of good stuff came up. You know, we’ve talked about finding the right solutions and what’s the right thing to do. I think we need to, maybe, frame what does the solution mean, and what does right mean, and for who? Because, maybe, finding the right solution just means, for the most people. Cause we’re not gonna find it for everybody. And, when you were talking about feeling like your government cares, feeling like your company cares: I could say personally that if I feel like my company, my parents, my anyone, insert relationship, is doing; what they’re doing and leading with empathy, there’s more room for mistakes. I’m okay if we stumble on the way to the solution, because I feel cared for, I feel nurtured. So, there’s more flexibility on my part to be open to the different solutions that come up. Yes, I wanted it to say that. And, in terms of flexibility and what we’re doing in terms of the space right now, so we have offices all over the world and we’re just hanging on to a handful of them, a few of them, and we just launched last week, or two weeks ago, the New York office is now more like a shared workspace. It allows for our customers to go in, if they need help. It allows for  anyone to go in, if they want to get photographs taken, if they want to have a shared workspace. So, there is some thoughtfulness around what the space is being used for. And, to piggyback on something you said, Suzi, were when we do get together, they will be quite intentional. So, there’s been a lot of conversation around what that will look like and it will exist, it’s just that it’s not going to be the classic: go to the office, hot desk. We don’t have that at all, but we will have these intentional moments where, as smaller teams/larger teams, we get together, and in the old days, or the before days, what we would call an offsite. It would be like that, but really intentional, several days, likely, and things like that. And, I cannot wait for those moments, ’cause again, I think we’ve established what I need. But, for some folks, they probably won’t be interested, ‘Cause you’re going to have the flip side, which is: “well, three days away, that’s a lot of planning, I have kids, how am I going to do this?” There’s a lot involved around that. But, for the most part, for most of the year, you no longer have the commute that was affecting, maybe, childcare. So, there’s a balance to be had. I don’t know what it looks like. But again, going back to what is a solution or what is the right thing? I think it depends on how we’re framing that and who is it right for. You know? 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah. That was one of the things that I wanted to underline too, is this question: do we do it for the most people? Again, as we’re thinking about this as a design challenge, you think about who is the user we’re designing for, Right? What do we believe to be true about that user and how many user personas are we actually designing for? Because, I might argue that instead of designing for the one that we have the most of, I would be designing through an equity lens, right? Who actually needs the most, or how do we actually orient more resources toward folks who have less resources? But, I think that’s part of this question and I think, especially, ever since the pandemic started, we’ve been saying: “oh my gosh, the future of work came early. You know, we knew it was coming eventually, and here we are.” Hearing you, Maya, talk about this world of talent that you can now recruit from because you’ve committed to digital only; we’re starting to see the real consequences and the real extra challenges in that, right? Thinking about, like: “well, what does pay equity look like when we’re talking about different roles in a universal market and how we value different types of talents, and skills, and locations, and stuff like that.” And, all of the other inclusion oriented pieces of, like: “okay, now you have a lot of different types of people collaborating, presumably across language, across identities, across worldviews, across experience, and that all becomes really complex,” you know? 

I know, Suzi, we didn’t really talk about this piece extensively, so I’m putting a little bit on the spot and something that I don’t know that you are necessarily responsible for: but, I’m curious; I mean, you all are an international firm, right? I’m curious how that’s playing into this for you all. You know, whether you’re creating, like, a north America strategy and having them be fairly independent, or how the different geographies are connecting. I’d be really curious to hear about that. 

Suzi Lilley: Yeah, it’s been very interesting because we have a huge part of our business, which is based in Asia, where actually they’ve been back in the office. Their back to normal, in some respects, for a significant amount of time, longer than we all have in the other parts of the world. So, for them, we’re also learning from that experience and what tactics that have been put in place, to be able to manage that safely. And, how did that happen? But, I think what’s been really interesting, and the feedback we’ve had from our people, is whether you have been part of the international cohort, and on global, calls, or global collaboration meetings, et cetera. But, also whether you have not been in the head office in the location. So, for example: in the U S we have folks in California, some folks in Nashville, but they are very few compared to those of us who are based in Chicago. Some of the feedback that we’ve heard from across the regionsm and across where we’re located, is people feel more connected than they ever had done before, because of this unified experience of everyone needing to be remote. I think there was something really interesting in that. It was like, not everything we’ve taken away from this is bad. Some of this is really great and what can we hold on to, to replicate and continue to be part of how we operate as an organization, inclusively? I think this other piece, which I referenced, the experience of the working parent and how this has enabled a very different way of life. I’m not saying that’s been all good. There’s definitely been an experience of getting used to that, having children at home and the stress and pressure of what that means. But, as children are returning to school, it’s giving folks a bit more flexibility to say: “well, between the hours of eight and 10, I’m not going to be available, but I’m going to be working these hours,” and actually having an opportunity to manage your day and your life around that, in a way that everybody has had to do that. It’s no longer unique to just one situation. [It] has given a different perspective on, what does flexible working look like and how do we continue to take the big wins on what’s working for us now into the future of how we operate as an organization moving forward. I think that’s been really interesting to learn, but also interesting to consider how it’s playing out in different locations for different people. So, what we’re looking to do, to really answer your question about doing that on an international scale, is to think about: what’s our global vision and north star for how we want to operate and how do we ensure that there is local nuance to ensure that, that is respectful of different cultures, and different experiences in those countries, and ensuring that the people who come together to create that strategy are respective of those different countries and experiences. Really thinking about, what does a diversely inclusive group of people building a solution look like? How do we make sure those voices are represented before we just go ahead and do something? I think that speaks to the idea and learnings that we’ve taken from you all, of coming in to help us think about these things in this way, of who’s not in the room, whose needs are not being serviced by the solution, and really considering what that means and what working from the office means for different identity groups of the people we have in our organization. So, that’s been a very real time, practical, application of this work that we have done to think and design our business inclusively. We’ve still got work to do. We’re not getting it right every time. But, it is that moment of: “wait a minute: who’s not in the room, whose viewpoint is not considered here, as we build for a global business?”

Rada Yovovich: Awesome, awesome. Yeah, for folks who aren’t from the marketing store, we’ve done a bunch of work with the team around inclusion, equity, all of this stuff, and it’s just so fun to hear y’all practicing it and really living by it! It’s, really, exactly what we hope for! 

I think one of the pieces that I’ll also invite in here, that has also been super alive lately, is fatigue. Again, not saying that I know, you know, anyone really knows, the answer on this. But, there’s this other tension of: “we want to show up in this caring way. We want to hear the voices. We want to invite people in. We want to bring people together,” and everybody is exhausted. I mean everybody, to your earlier points, we didn’t really pause. Right? There’s been some of this rhetoric around everybody taking a big pause during the pandemic. The three of us, at least, all the folks I’m talking to are like: “who exactly is paused? Because, I feel like I’ve just had a weighted jacket added, and I’m still going through the same sprints.” So, I think that there is this exhaustion and disengagement that comes from that. Then this question of: “okay, so this is where, again, this trauma informed piece starts coming in here.” What does support actually look like? Does it look like giving a whole lot of space, and saying: “yeah, we know you’re tired, so we’re not going to bother you. We’re going to let you keep riding along at your own pace. Or, is it saying we’re going to try really hard to create ways of working, opportunities, events, resources, et cetera, to try and bring you back in? Because, we know having a home and having a community can be nourishing.” Yeah. So, I’m just super curious about that. I’m not asking you all to have expertise on what everybody’s feeling, but I’m just curious about what you’ve seen and how you’re moving with that.

I’ll invite Maya to chime in first.

Maya Toussaint: Yes, I love that question. I’m listening, and then like: “oh, the space. Yes. I definitely have needed the space.” Then it got to a point where I felt I had too much space and I found myself very sad that no one was checking on me, whether that’s colleagues, the business, HR. This is, let’s say last year, at a previous employer. That space was really deafening and ultimately led to me leaving, because I didn’t feel supported in any shape or form. Then, on the flip side, where I am now: there are so many resources and I do feel like I have access. But, a lot of it is on me to access those resources, which makes sense, we do have to own a lot of it. But, I would love some, sort of, mix of encouraging folks to be a little bit more comfortable with the discomfort. What I mean by that is, when people ask me how I’m doing, I tell them the truth and I’ve had a few people tell me: “it’s funny how you never say, ‘yeah, I’m fine.’ You never say that.” I’m like: “yeah, ’cause I’m not, I’m not fine. I’m something more or less than that.” You know, we have stand-ups at work, but they’re digital stand-ups, so just like:” what are you working on today?” I’ll just, kind of, like: “I need to hydrate. I hope you guys are okay.” I’m giving more information around the emotions than just about the tasks. So, for me, and for the folks that I’ve talked to, some sort of combination of allowing you to ask for the space, allowing you to feel comfortable enough to say “I need a mental health day,” A space where you feel like you can just say “I’m not feeling productive.” But, then on the flip side: “you know what? We’ve got a little gathering scheduled where we’re all just going to play a stupid game online on Thursday at three,” giving me access to participate. That’s what I find works for me. It goes back to what we’ve been talking about, in terms of having choice, which I feel is ultimately what a lot of us just want. I just want the opportunity to choose things, to choose to be this way today, to choose to show up this way today, is what I feel could work for a lot of folks. 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah.

Suzi Lilley: Yeah, I love that. I think it’s definitely been tricky to balance this part of my role, in the people team: you’re very much seen as guardians of those sorts of processes, or policies, structures, to be able to support people and engage people on a different level to check in. Obviously, checking in is a huge priority over the last year and a half. But, I think balancing that with, what is your inclusion strategy and how does that go across everything you do. Versus, being something separate. Kind of, weaving it in. It’s almost given us a heightened opportunity to prioritize doing that and position this as part of our business strategy and how we do things. I think there’s some really interesting stats we’ve been hitting our leaders with, to get that buy in for why this is important. I think most recently, there was an article that had trends of the future of the hybrid work world. It said something like: in the last year and a half, one in six people have cried with a colleague at work. And, I think: “yup. Hands up. That’s me, maybe more than once.” I think: “what does that say to us?” It says that, by inviting work into our space, which we didn’t truly invite out of choice: the frustration, the pandemic fatigue, the check-in fatigue, the survey fatigue, all of that contributes to this heightened sense of anxiety. I think we’ve seen that so much. Again, and research is saying: significantly higher numbers of people leveraging employee assistance programs and leveraging remote therapy work. So, I think where you balance that from a work perspective is, it is our duty of care to check in on our people, both from a physical and mental wellness perspective. They have to be equated to the same level of importance, if we truly prioritize bringing your best self to do your best work. I think we won’t always get it right and I think we err on the side of over checking in, versus giving too much space. Because, what we’ve noticed is, that has been a requirement from our people, and they will be vocal when they say this is too much. There is that school of thought to say: “Hey, can we just get back to talking about work? Because, why are we still talking about all this inclusion stuff and mental wellbeing? You know, I’m fine. I want to keep doing my work.” But, actually, the people who need it the most, to know it’s there, that for me is why we’ve taken the steer of: “no, we think it needs to be visibly/vocally here and to provide you with access to that in a way that could be anonymous, that could be coming forward in person, and it could be going through a certain channel that’s totally impartial to us.” As you say, Maya, giving you the choice to go and say: “I need access to it. How do I feel comfortable accessing that support?” That’s been a priority for us. It has been something that I think we’ve definitely erred on overdoing, but has resulted in the feedback from our people, which is: “I feel like this business truly cares about how I am and how I’m showing up. That makes me feel like I want to continue showing up, because even though I’m tired, even though I feel burnt out, although my workload hasn’t really increased; I just feel like that from this experience, I feel like I want to keep doing it, here, with these people.” That’s the one win we take away from that, right? You know?

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, I love that. I’m reflecting, and I’m hearing, and I’m noticing how critical it is for me, now that I have at least one meeting a day in which we have a genuine check-in. It’s not the topic of the meeting, but it’s how the meeting starts. It’s not just saying: “how are you?” And I say: “oh, I’m tired, or I’m, you know, whatever.” But, it’s a moment of pause where I actually take a breath and I notice how my body feels and I notice how energetically I’m showing up to the meeting. Sometimes with the really tactical, clean cut, project management type stuff, at least this is how my brain works, it’s fine. But, when there’s more creative work, especially if we’re doing anything with identity, if we’re doing anything that has any opportunity to be sensitive, starting those meetings with; somebody at the marketing store used to call it our mood meter, we used to just say: “here’s where I’m at. Here’s how I’m showing up.” You know, and that helps us understand what pace to go, what might be happening during the meeting that’s not actually about the meeting. I actually really like what you said, Suzi, about sometimes you just want to say: “you know, I kind of don’t want to do this right now.” My personal share, I’ll say that my dog is currently in surgery. I dropped her off this morning, and one of my best friends messaged me and was like: ‘how are you feeling?” And I was like: “you know, I’m actually pretty committed right now to not feeling about it.” And, he was like: “I’m here to support you and not feeling about it right now. Would you like some pizza?” You know, or something like that.

Maya Toussaint: Good Friend

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, and sometimes that’s exactly right. You know, I don’t want to be doing pizza instead of feelings for everything, everyday, all the time. But sometimes that is the right answer. I think you’re right, Suzi, that having a habit around checking in is what makes that possible, makes that space for you to actually say: “you know, I do feel like sharing this.” Or, “Nope, I’m actually all set.”

Suzi Lilley: Yeah. But, it also goes to being able to manage back to our leaders and our business, goals and ambitions, to say: these things aren’t going to get done.” Because, people are actively telling us: “I do not have headspace to make this happen.” They can’t run this fast and we might need to go slower. I think that’s been a real point of realization for us. We’ve also been going through an integration piece of work, or a merger, which is significant and there’s a huge amount of brain power required to make that possible. We found ourselves in meetings going: “okay, we’ve now got to switch from tactics to strategy,” on the same call. Looking in this two D way, usually your triggers for going into strategy are: you’re sitting in a room, there’s some flip charts. Do you know what I mean? You’re, kind of, here now, just trying to turn it on. It’s really hard and it’s really hard to get your brain moving, especially when there are so many things happening around you and you’re experiencing all these things. I think what we’ve noticed, for our people particularly, it’s that they can’t go that fast at the moment. We’ve got to think about: how do we prioritize, to maximize and get the best out of our people, without completely burning them out. So, I think we talked about this, as being the biggest change management project we’ve ever experienced, right? But, this in itself has got to be treated in that way. 

Maya Toussaint: Yeah. That makes me think of a conversation I had a few weeks ago, Suzi, with some friends, just talking about performance reviews and performance evaluations. I shared personally on my Facebook, I was like: “you know, expecting your employees to be at the level, either you know them to be at, or the level they were at when you hired them, or what have you right now, and not leaving room for all the million things that are happening right now, is frustrating or potentially thoughtless. I’m not saying that someone who usually gets ‘exceeds expectations’ should continue to get that status. But, there should be more thoughtfulness around how we have conversations, around: “hey, maybe you missed a deadline. I’m aware that there is a pandemic, all the drama happening in the world.” There’s the politics, the BIPOC community with this, and there’s so many things that are affecting how productive we are. I have never, in my entire life, felt so unproductive, and I’m someone who thrives on my work. I love feeling like the go-to person and like, “oh, let me ask Maya, she’ll get to it.” I am not feeling like that and it’s beyond bothering me. That’s a whole other hour for us to chat about. But, I’m just kinda like, I want to be able to talk about the context in which I’m working right now; doesn’t allow for my best work, even if I’m trying to give that to you. So, I do think we as managers/leaders need to be more thoughtful around that piece as well, in this coming back to the office, coming back to work, whatever you want to call it, just the next performance reviews. Let me frame the conversation with: “I noticed you’re doing so well at this, even during all these things,” and just framing it differently. As opposed to: “here are the four things you didn’t do.” That doesn’t help anybody. you know?

Rada Yovovich: Yeah, yeah. The word ‘grace,’ is one that has been coming up a lot. How do we give grace, right? How do we make space for that? One of the questions that came in is a little bit more tactical, and it’s: “what’s one thing that wasn’t done, right or not a good strategy, and what’s one thing you saw that you really liked and felt like that was a good step?” It could be repeating things you’ve already named, but I think this is pointing to, a little bit more of, a specific action, kind of thing, that has landed well.

Suzi Lilley: You know, I think the one thing that we saw that landed really well, was not dictating the amount of time anyone has to spend in the office, when we reopen. So, we’ve reopened on a purely hybrid model, which says: you can come in as you please, or not. I think why that was a good move for us, is we saw that among our competitors that wasn’t happening and those folks were looking to leave those organizations, because they felt that their organization wasn’t listening to the experience that gone through; and actually: “I’m not ready for you to enforce or mandate for me to be in the office three days a week.” So for us, when we saw that happening around us, we were like: “okay, that was a good thing. We did good there. That was a good idea. We’ve definitely considered that in the right way.” You know, and I think, one thing that we haven’t done, or maybe we haven’t quite got to yet, is really thinking about how we do this in a way that brings our organization together more. I think we’ve not quite cracked how to bring the culture piece into what it means now, being more remote. That’s the piece where we are learning and figuring out, still. How do we hold onto who we are and our identity as a business, as a culture, when we no longer physically are seeing each other and we’ve created a hybrid working model? That’s where the sticky part of this is right now. We’re not quite sure how we’re doing that and haven’t quite cracked it using our remote tools, just yet. So, I’d say there are probably are too big for me. 

Rada Yovovich: Yeah. I love that. Thank you. 

Maya Toussaint: Thanks Suzi. I’m with you on that. I think what doesn’t work, or what I’ve seen not work, is rigidity around anything. Literally, whether it’s your policies, how you’re approaching your team meetings; like you said, the back to the office. Or, in our case, maybe,  it’s the time in which you log in. Rigidity around anything right now, I just feel doesn’t make sense. I quite literally am thinking of that, even on a personal level. My expectations of my friends, none of this can be rigid, because we’re all handling this differently. I am not a morning person. I try to not have anything going on before 10. I tell people that in interviews, you know? If you need me at eight, it’s going to be rough. I’ll do it when needed. But, the last two weeks I’ve been getting up before the entire team. So, they’re checking in, ’cause they’re like: “are you okay? I noticed you’re up early. Are you having trouble sleeping?” There’s a thoughtfulness there and why they’re asking. So, long story short, just any rigidity or not being able to be flexible on anything. So, that, I think, is totally problematic right now.

Rada Yovovich: Yes. Awesome. That is a beautiful last thought, for us to leave it on. So, thank you both so much. Thank you to the folks listening live, the recording, everything. But, really: Suzi, Maya, thank you so much for being a part of this. Really, really thankful to have you two in [the] family, our community. For the rest of you, this live stream will be available on YouTube, if you want to watch the video. I have a follow-up article with not just some highlights, but also additional resources. So, some other good folks that are sharing ideas about: how do we bring collaboration in person, back into the swing of things. We would love it if you shared any of this stuff. Share it with your team, share it with your friends, share it with your colleagues, with collaborators, anybody that you think would appreciate the conversation. So, if you want to follow The Darkest Horse on social media, we are @TDHcast, on Twitter and Instagram. We’re on LinkedIn, we’re also on Facebook. we’re around. I think Instagram is probably the number one place for us. Suzi and Maya, if you are interested in sharing any contact information, if folks want to follow up with you; whether that’s social media, or email, or whatever, I would love to invite either of you, if you want to share anything.

Suzi Lilley: Yeah. Definitely catch me on LinkedIn. it’s Suzi Lilley, my full name. So, do go ahead, follow me, do whatever you need. Yeah, absolutely reach out there. I’m always happy to entertain any form of conversation, in any format. So, please do reach out. 

Maya Toussaint: Same here, LinkedIn. I’m the only Maya Toussaint, as far as I know, on LinkedIn; which is impressive. So, that’s where I’m at. 

Rada Yovovich: Awesome. And, we’ll include all that in the show notes as well. As always send us questions, comments, feedback, anything like that to The Darkest Horse at hello@thedarkerstores.com.

Thank you all for being in community with us. We’d love to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, questions. Otherwise, we’ll hope to see you at next month’s session, that will be really focused on: how do we design withm, rather than designed for. So, what does it mean to be designing/creating solutions in community instead of from a, kind of, savior perspective? So, [it] should be a really exciting conversation. Yeah, look forward to seeing you all then. 

Chanté Thurmond 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to our new ish live stream series. This is Chanté Martínez Thurmond today representing The Darkest Horse. We are a minority and women owned next gen dei consulting firm based out of Chicago. We’re really obsessed with helping the workforce and organizations explore the intersections of radical inclusion, emerging technology, the future of work, health, well being and human potential. 

Want to just say thank you all again for sharing your time with us. If you’re taking lunch, thank you so much for maybe listening and learning today. The goal for today’s livestream session is to explore some concepts of nation, citizenship, our sense of space and belonging, and how these things impact our identities in our lived experiences at work and in our communities. 

So I already said my name Chanté Martínez Thurmond but I’m joined today by one of our new collaborators, Hanna Kim and our TDH teammate fahad punjwani. 

Wanted to just give a quick high level overview and some housekeeping items. One Rada Yovovich, my awesome co founder is here today and will be on tech. We have Zaiden Sowle who’s also here and is our TDH intern, we’re going to make sure that we keep an organic vibe going today, we want to make sure that we’re sort of showing up as like Red Table Talk hosts, starting with some introductions, and we’ll transition into a few questions and prompts. And we’ll just let the conversation go from there. It doesn’t mean that we are going to go off the rails and have tangential conversations or anything like that. But we just want to leave space for us to sort of think and if you have a question, don’t be afraid to send it over in the chat, but you can also email us and then we can tag along and put it into our follow-up blog post that will be sent out to everyone afterwards. 

So enough with all of that, let’s get to the fun stuff. I really want to introduce you first to Hanna Kim. And then we’ll pass it over to fahad. And I wanted to say that here at The Darkest Horse, we try our best not to introduce ourselves by credentials and titles first, we leave that kind of for the end, if anybody’s even curious, you can always just Google our names or look us up on LinkedIn. But we try to tell you who we are without telling you what we do. So Hanna, take it away.

Hanna Kim  

Hello, everyone. My name is Hanna Kim and I just want to thank Rada and Chanté for having me and for fahad, to really initiate this collaboration. It’s truly an honor to be able to share my story on this wonderful platform. Yeah, so you know, my name is Hanna, and I use she/her pronouns. And I am a 30 year old woman with curly hair and round glasses wearing a gray top standing against a gray background. And I am joining you all from the Sana, Atakapa, and Karankawa land colonially known as Houston, Texas. So yeah, that’s me in a nutshell. And I think I pass it on to fahad now?

fahad punjwani   

I want to acknowledge just I love shantay what you said about sharing who we are without saying what we do. So often it’s easier to say what we do as a way to substitute for who we are, and I love that challenge. My name is fahad punjwani I use he/him they/them pronouns interchangeably. I am also as Hanna is on the unceded Land of the Sana, Atakapa, and Karankawa people, collonially known as Houston, Texas. I am male-presenting in my 30s with a thick beard, round glasses, short hair, wearing a green shirt in front of a floral background. Really excited to be here.

Chanté Thurmond  

Thank you y’all did great. I know I introduce myself again, but to follow form. My name is Chanté Martinez Thurmond, I use she/her or ella pronouns. I’m coming from the unceded territory of the Council of Three Fires, that’s colonially known as Chicago. I am a mixed race millennial woman with curly hair glasses and wearing a purple and black top. 

I’d love to, you know, also just sort of start with this prompt, right for both Hanna and fahad and just ask how are you showing up to the conversation? How are you arriving to the space? 

Hanna Kim 

Yeah, that’s a that’s such a interesting and important question that I think we don’t really ask as often as we should. So I’ll just begin by talking about where I’m at today, which is Houston, but I think I’ll have to kind of go back and talk about where I’ve been so far, in order to really talk about where I am showing up today, and I’ll do that by briefly summarizing the places I have lived in the past. 

I have I’ve lived in Houston for the past two years. But I’ve also lived in the US for over 15 years now. And that’s since my family immigrated here in 2005. So going even further, when I was from when I was six to 14, I lived in South Korea. And before that, I lived in Vienna, Austria. So, so I guess I’m something like an Austrian-born Korean American. But that just it is true, but it doesn’t really capture who I feel or, you know, I think there’s a gap. And I think we will be exploring this in our conversation. 

But in terms of my identity papers, you know, which says who I am in the system, right, I hold a South Korean passport, and I also hold a United States permanent residency card, which is also known as green card. And, you know, I’m so fortunate to be able to identify myself this way, especially because I did not earn neither of these identities with my own effort. So, you know, I’d say most of my journey so far, and how I’m showing up has been shaped by my parents journey, especially their musical and spiritual journey. My parents are classical musicians, you know, who studied in Vienna, and my dad came to the US to get his master’s in divinity degree when he was in his mid 40s, both of my parents got their doctoral degrees in the US, and then abruptly left to Cambodia to pursue being missionaries. So I think they’re, you know, they’re really spirit-led and purpose-seeking people. And because of that, I think I have always been surrounded by this creative and soulful, existential buzz around the household. And I think I’ve become that kind of person too. And that’s how I show up to my friends and to my community, to my workplaces. Yeah. 

So you know, talking about work briefly, I in terms of what I do, I am an artist and designer who is super interested in the intersection of design and policy. And that may sound odd or kind of nerdy. But what that means is that I really find joy in exploring how the complex and often broken system that we live in can be reimagined, and even be healed by art and design. And what that looks like is that I collaborate with nonprofits and inspirational people in sort of translating what they are thinking and what needs to be communicated with sort of illustrations and graphic design, mostly focusing on awareness raising and civic education. So yeah, I’m really passionate about, you know, what I do and how I show up. And I think it’s really important that I always like, check myself as well, because I think, you know, my work really helps me feel belong. And really ask myself, like how to, you know, untangle some of these really important and difficult questions and really unlearn from what I have been sort of taught growing up.

Chanté Thurmond  

I have a big, huge smile on my face. I’m loving all this, and I am purposely trying to reserve myself in my joy so we could get to fahad I would love for fahad to answer the same question. So tell us how you’re showing up and how you’re arriving to the space today, fahad.

fahad punjwani 

Taking a deep breath to recognize, I am feeling pretty grounded today. And I’m showing up as grounded, and I’m feeling centered. And I’m also showing up as a queer person in America who is on a visa, who, you know, very much like everybody else is still sort of making sense of the pandemic. 

I loved, though how Hanna you sort of tied, showing up with the places that you’ve lived. And I particularly like that because I think belonging to a place has been sort of this quest that I’ve been on. And I feel like I’m probably sort of sounding a lot like Brenee Brown right now or Glennon Doyle, or Susan Fiske, you know, talking about like belonging of a deep human need. But I, I think, very more and more recently, especially as I’m like, leaning more into like Buddhist teachings, I’m also recognizing the sort of quest for belonging being a very ego-driven thing. And recognizing that, perhaps there’s no quest. It is inherently there, and just need to find it or to claim it, or to think that I deserve it or that I need to receive it is perhaps another way that ego is showing up. And it’s just sort of accepted by society, but it’s still ego driven. And so why have this quest when to be human is to belong? I am just holding that tension in me right now. 

I came to the US from Pakistan to study I was born in Pakistan. I lived there for the first 18 years, I was born in Hyderabad, and then moved to Karachi, Karachi to a much bigger city, and then moved to the US to study for undergrad. And it’s been 13 years that I’ve been in the US, actually, August 8, will be my 13 year anniversary here. I’m on a visa right now. So when I came to the US, I was on an f1 student visa. And I want to share these titles just so you can sort of come along the journey with me a little bit I’ve on an f1 student visa, which allows you to only study in the US. And then I transitioned into an Optional Practical Training, which allowed me to work after I graduated for a year, I got an h1, B and started working for an employer and I could only work for the employer. And until unless I had a stamp on my passport, that I could only get a country outside of the US, I couldn’t travel outside of the US, then I went back on an f1 visa because I wanted to go to grad school, and then went back on an OBT, which allowed me to work in the US, I finished three years, almost three years on OBT. And now I’m back on an h1 B. I’m not a permanent resident, I’m not a citizen. And what that means is that there are a lot of restrictions on how I can be in this country.

I want to acknowledge that there’s a lot of privilege in having a legally recognized designation in this country in this world, really. And so I am able to work, I am able to make a living, I am able to move freely, even within the United States without the burden of feeling like ICE is on my back. And at the same time, you know, I’m missing a dear friend’s wedding in France, because I don’t have a stamp on my passport, I’m potentially missing weddings have to do cousins who are getting married outside of the US. I’m unable to pursue jobs that are outside of my H1B scope, or you know freelance as a poet as my heart desires. So also sort of holding that tension within me of the privilege and the restrictions that come with being on a visa in the US. And I love what you said about you know that you didn’t earn the credential these identities, and I really feel that no one deserves those. And everyone deserves those identities and those credentials, really, really excited and thankful.

Chanté Thurmond  

Wow, I mean, I could just let you both keep talking. Because I just want to recognize that you did an excellent job of you know, showing up and sharing those parts about yourselves that maybe I think a lot of us just like forget about when we’re having like networking dinners and lunches and stuff like that, like we just don’t talk about those technicalities and the ways in which our identity and our citizenship or our current place actually can impact like our well being. So if you’re thinking about all these things, right, you know, just in terms of like your h1 visa, and just the things that like you mentioned, you want to do freelancing and be a poet. That’s what your heart really desires. I can’t imagine what that feels like. But I empathize because I have friends and family that have shared their experiences with me. So I just want to say I’m very grateful that you were brave enough and vulnerable enough to share that with everyone today. So thank you to both you and Hanna. 

I think I already mentioned this, but I’m going to say it again, just to sort of again, follow the form. I am a mixed race multicultural woman, I identify as a Black Latina, I’m cis I’m able-bodied, I’m a mother of twins, I consider myself not first generation probably like 1.5 generation, my mother was an immigrant, so I’m the daughter of an immigrant family. I’m also a proud descendant of Black slave ancestors, who during the Great Migration moved from Mississippi to the Midwest, like so many folks did. And I laugh when I say the great migration, like as if it was great. Like, it’s actually like a fleeing, of being, you know, oppressed. So I show up today, with ambivalence, right, I’m holding space for multiple truths, and that I recognize are complex, and they’re very nuanced. And as I get older, and more mature, I am okay with that. I think in my past, the younger me would have just skated right past that, you know, just like why are we getting into so many of these like complexities, but I think there’s something beautiful about just holding those two things like as you’re sharing behind. So on the one hand, I think I want to express, you know, my my gratitude and reverence for my mother and her family who made a conscious decision, a conscious decision to leave their beloved Mexico, and to immigrate to a country that was foreign to them at the time that to learn a new language to get, you know, embedded into a culture that probably wasn’t very welcoming to them. You know, they gave up so much in their search of the American dream. And they really believed it probably at that time, it was in the 50s and 60s that, hey, there’s all these great possibilities. So marketing worked. 

On the other hand, I feel deeply humbled by the experiences that my brilliant African ancestors, who literally had to fight for their lives to survive slavery had to endure they endured the brutalities of white body supremacy and enslaved to systems that they didn’t create systems that they didn’t control and recognizing that literally their resistance to that, to that oppression is my resilience. Like, I’m so humbled and grateful for that, because if they had given up, I wouldn’t be here today. So I’m right here right now because of them. And I have to give thanks and show honor to them. And, you know, I think that again, as I was saying, there’s just so much wisdom and actually embracing and sort of holding both truths, or multiple truths doesn’t have to be one or the other. And despite the difference in terms of the familial ancestral stories of how my people got here, the commonality is one me and my siblings, like, I think it’s beautiful. And there’s just something really amazing in that for me. So I’m still exploring that right now. But with lots of intention, and just staying open, curious, humble, and, you know, being brave enough to ask the questions that maybe some of the younger folks in my family haven’t asked they’ve been skating by. 

So, I want to lead us to the next question, if that’s okay, unless you all want to tag on to anything else we just talked about? So, I want to ask, and this is another kind of deep question. How have you developed a sense of belonging with respect to place? And I know we heard from Hanna first by can we can we hear from you first on this question, if you don’t mind?

fahad punjwani  

Yeah, I’ve had some time, obviously, to reflect on this question. It’s definitely something that I’m very, very intentionally been sort of finding the question that I like, very, very much sort of prioritized. You know, growing up in Karachi when, you know, as a queer person, and I didn’t want to fit into any sort of gender or sexual orientation buckets, I had a tough time growing up, there was a lot of internal chaos. And really, when I moved from Karachi to Euston, I feel like I fled that place. I left it behind. When I was in Houston, and I lived in Houston for almost eight years before I moved to Boston. And I very much remember having that same feeling that I went to see used it, I wanted to get out of here. And you know, I got to Boston, I was clinically depressed. I was graduating, and I did not want to work. Nothing, no job. No opportunity was exciting to me. And it was only one of my you know, best friends, Elena, she, you know, was aware of my situation. And she said this generously to me. She just said, Just come stay with me. She was living in Houston, she just said, come stay with me. And you can figure it out. And that invitation was so generous, because I was looking for familiarity. Even though I had sort of left Houston, I was still yearning for that familiarity. And I needed that comfort that Elena was sort of offering to me. So I now I’m back in Houston, and I’m working sort of rooting in place and using place as a way to build community and community as a way to have belonging, while also recognizing that belonging is truly, truly inherent and truly internal. 

I want to share sort of two things. One is sort of this idea of queerness. And I really want to bring in this idea of queerness and place because I do think it makes sense. And people talk about coming out as queer. And I know and it’s more and more about, you’re coming in to being queer, you’re sort of you’re coming into your true identity, there’s no coming out and professing it’s really about like finding true home. And sort of recognizing that no, there was never a box you fit in. The only box that you fit in was this. And so that’s very much how I feel about now place as well. And I’m thinking about a beautiful sort of Maya Angelou quote that she said in an interview, where she said you are only free when you realize that you belong no place you belong every place no place at all. The price is high, the reward is great. And yeah, I think that quote really resonates with me, it oftentimes doesn’t make sense. Oftentimes, it makes sense. It’s just something that I’m constantly grappling with. But I know there’s such wisdom in it. In my most grounded moments. That’s a quote that resonates with me.

Chanté Thurmond  

Wow. Wow, that was so beautiful. And leave it to you to make such a, you know, interesting, profound question that could go one way like to turn it back into something really beautiful. Thank you so much. That was amazing. Amazing. I want to hear from you, Hanna, please share it we we don’t have to like put periods at the end of these things like, you know, finitely, we can come back to this question because it is such a big one. So please, if you have any other thoughts as Hannah’s talking, like, let’s come back until we’re done sort of exploring this question together. 

Hanna Kim 

Yeah, there’s just so much like that I’m resonating with and I feel almost kind of at home talking to both of you, you know, which is a great reward for me just being part of this conversation. And thinking back to your original question Chanté about like how I have developed a sense of belonging with respect to place, I think I’ve always, you know, and you’ve both said the word ambivalence, and I really resonate with that and I would even further to say, like, I’ve always had this kind of feeling of disorientation with everywhere I went, because I’ve moved a few times in my life. And each of the time I’ve moved, you know, from Austria to Korea to Korea to the US, it was like a complete, uprooting, you know, I was just kind of tagging along with my parents. And I had really no say, You know why or where I was going. So I had to really adjust to new cultures and languages and landscapes, and I have to build relationships from the ground up. And same goes for my parents as well, of course. And I think that’s why I can so easily tap back into the feeling of disorientation. And I think if I were to draw some kind of a metaphor, it’s like when you repeat a word over and over again, at one point, it starts to sound strange. And I think that’s kind of the experience that I have with my day to day. And sometimes, I would even, like catch a glimpse of myself reflected on like a storefront. And I’m like, Who is that? You know? So, I think that’s kind of how I have developed the sense of belonging, a strange one. 

But you know, it is also coupled by other truths. One, for example, is sort of encapsulated in this episode, right? When I lived in Korea, I never felt like I truly belong there, even if I am a Korean citizen, because when I was going to school, my friends always made fun of me for my hair. So a lot of East Asian folks have really straight, thick hair, and my hair is very thin, and frizzy and curly. So, you know, I stood out in all the wrong ways when I was growing up. Yeah. And it was only when I kind of came to the US that I realized that no one really took any problem with my hair, because there are hundreds of hair textures and colors. And I could see hair products that I’ve never seen before in my life on the shelves, you know. So I think that’s when I really experienced that feeling of both being so free from judgment, and also being embraced for my uniqueness. And I think that’s when I really kind of would put my flag down and say this is when I felt belonged in a place. And it’s so counterintuitive, or I should say it’s interesting or ironic that you can totally feel like an outsider in a place that you are supposed to fit right in. And on the other side, you can feel welcomed in completely unlikely places. And what’s unfortunate is that sometimes we are cast it out by the very people that are supposed to accept us and protect us as our kin. So yeah, and I think that brings me to kind of respond to fahads point earlier. I totally echo what Farhad said in terms of like, thinking about belonging as an inherently philosophical and even spiritual topic, because while belonging, it is tied to a physical place, because we do live a embodied life, we are living in a place, but I think we are or I should say, I am, you know, aware that I never really chose who I am, and where I was born, and all of those things in the first place. And I think that’s what compels me personally to be in search of this sense of belonging all of the time, and I know it will last for all of my life. So I think that sense of place doesn’t really seem to exist in real physical world. 

And what helps me what grounds me like what grounded fahad with the Maya Angelou quote is one of my favorite Bible verses from the book of Philippians, where Paul talks about how our citizenship is in heaven, and it doesn’t exist in this world. And I think this helps me sort of identify myself with some place somewhere beyond myself, which helps me sort of transcend the visible outlines of where I should cross or should not and helps me be in community with all people.

fahad punjwani  

Yeah. And I’m holding there two things inside me. One is that we are exactly where we need to be. And we’re always on a journey. 

Hanna Kim  

Totally. 

fahad punjwani  

And especially when you’re talking about you know, your hair and how that sort of signaled belonging or not belonging or being cast it out, or being accepted. I was thinking about that while we do inherently belong to ourselves as artists, as leaders as activists. Our role perhaps is to create the causes and conditions that allow people to fully belong to themselves 

Hanna Kim  

Totally 

fahad punjwani  

feed into the doubt that is also a part of our body.

Chanté Thurmond   

Gosh, my heart is swelling. I keep touching my heart while Y’all are talking. And I’ve done a lot of embodied practices. And one of my favorite sort of meditations is saying, like, I have a body, but I’m not my body. I’m more than my body. Because I am spirit. I am God. I felt compelled to kind of share that right now. But I want to invite you to continue on what you were saying both of you. So if there’s anything else, because I know that when we were talking before all this and sort of prepping for this day, we all had so many thoughts. And so I’m just inviting you to kind of scan again, you know, if you have anything else that’s emerging for you, as we’re hearing from one another right now. 

Hanna Kim  

Yeah thank you. One thing that I do want to kind of continue on probing is with the fahads point about, you know, artists and leaders, being the ones that shape and design the kind of processes and systems in which we explore these things and define ourselves with and as much as the sense of belonging is, you know, within ourselves, and it is spiritual, I think it is really critical to think and talk about our systems and structures that are in place already. Right. And these two things may seem contradictory, but they really aren’t, if you think about it, and this idea that we don’t belong on this earth, or I’m just kind of using myself my words here, the idea that we don’t belong here, within the kind of physical borders of some nations, is actually real. This became very clear to me when I learned about statelessness, and I learned this in grad school. So statelessness as some people may be hearing for the first time on this conversation describes when someone is not recognized as a national by any state under the operation of its law. So that is the international human rights definition of statelessness. It’s basically in simpler terms, a stateless person actually doesn’t belong to any nation, and does not have a flag that they could identify themselves with, doesn’t have an embassy they could go to most of the time they don’t have any travel document issued by a government because they don’t have a government. I, you know, bring this up, because I am so fortunate to have worked with a grassroots organization led by stateless people in the United States. And this organization is called United Stateless, they exist in every corner of the world. And they really, for me, lift this veil on how nations citizenships and even the sense of belonging are constructed, and are even fantasized about. And as an artist and designer, I have collaborated on a few creative projects with stateless activists and other organizations advocating for their protection and recognition. So at this time, I think it would be great to share a short video that I worked on with some stateless folks and explains what statelessness is.

SHAPELESS SHAPES VIDEO  

The world was full of shapes. shapes belonged with their own guide, the same kind, and the different kind, but they did not live happily ever after. Some shapes are deemed to be shapeless shapes. They were forced to live in the shadows in fear, but a few of them refused to stay silent. They organized themselves. Some shapes joined them too their movement grew. Together they fought for their rights. Would they be successful? Shapeless Shapes is a book about identity, belonging, history for freedom, discrimination, injustice, activism, and statelessness. Shapeless Shapes is a call to action to shape our future. Come join us. Let’s build our movement together.

Chanté Thurmond  

Thank you so much for sharing that. Hanna I think it’s an amazing body of work that you’ve had an opportunity to contribute to. And I know that you know, you don’t do it alone. You have a whole community of folks that you’re partnering with and collaborating with constantly on that. So do you have any other kind of follow up thoughts in terms of like, you actually designing that video and maybe like, give us a little bit more context on how that came to be. 

Hanna Kim  

Yeah, sure. Thank you for that question. So the video that you just watched and the voice that you heard, it’s actually a stateless person. And this is actually a trailer video for a book I co-wrote with another stateless activist, it kind of stemmed from me trying to understand what statelessness was right? And like, what is it that is at the essence of statelessness, and which really kind of revealed itself when we worked on this book together, and really let art and our visual communication kind of lead us into exploring what is at the heart of this issue. And, you know, I think it was about problematizing, what it means to belong, like what it means to have a nation that you identify with, and what does it mean, to not have a nation that you can identify with, and why those things happen. And what is at the heart of it is really, our human nature to want to delineate a place and sort of identify ourselves, and then call those who are outside of that as others, and really sort of weaponizing that to be able to, you know, take away somebody’s citizenship, and further discriminating them on the basis of not having a citizenship. So it all kind of feeds into that system that perhaps we really take for granted. And so the point of this book, and the point of having a book named shapeless shapes, is to really think about our human rights. And, you know, why is that so tied to our nationality, And why is that so tied to place like, how did that come to be, And if we do have those identities that protect us and shields us from violence or for discrimination, What are our roles for those who may not have those sort of sense of security and comfort? So that is sort of why we worked on this book together?

Chanté Thurmond 

Wow, we probably should have like a whole show dedicated to this. I had so many thought bubbles, as you were talking just now. And I want to go back to something that you all said, and I kind of touched on a little bit. It’s just like, for me in terms of this question, I think of it in terms of belonging, and in respect to place in space right now. I used to think of it in this like, physical mundane sense. And I went through a deep spiritual evolution, as I got a little older and started to mature, I would say like, right around that 28, 29, 30 years of age milestone, and just started to like, question a lot of things around me. Not that I wasn’t a questioning teenager, I’ve always been like one that sort of challenges paradigms and stuff. But I came to the realization that, you know, belongingness, or, you know, my sense of self, and being grounded in relation to a space or a place was actually through a transpersonal, like, spiritual, embodied experience, not so much like, you know, I grew up in the Midwest. And I’m like, I started to realize, yes, my race and my ethnicity, and my cultural upbringing does influence me. But I’m literally a spirit having a human embodied experience. Just for right now. Like, it just so happens that in this body in this time, I live here, and I get to call myself a millennial. And maybe I’ll come back again. And it’s another form of sentient being, hopefully. And so behind you mentioned Buddhism, and I’ve explored so many different kind of spirituality or traditions and philosophies and stuff. And so I don’t claim one as my like, anchor, but I take a lot of inspiration from Buddhism, and just like the non attachments of life, and I learned that I was overly attached to my identity. And it was through the relationship of white supremacy. Because that’s imperialism right? That is the whole point in relation to place and space through geopolitical power and oppression, make sense to control people, you know, if you can keep them tribal, if you can keep people just only focused on those identities that are very mundane and like, you know, 3D physicalities but not thinking spiritually and not kind of having those transpersonal experiences, you know, you can control them all day long. I think the opportunity is to get more people to focus on that. And that is a gift that is something that I would like to see for thinking about the future of work, I want to see more people hone in on that emotional intelligence, that spiritual intelligence and have those embodied, you know, experiences alone, you know, in separate and but also together in community because I think that’s how we’re going to change the future. So Again, I felt compelled to share that because it’s just coming up so strongly for me right now. And I often journal about this. I don’t always share it publicly, but I just think it’s worth it for based on the conversation we’re having right now.

fahad punjwani  

Yeah, Chanté, the question that’s like, popped in my head, as you’re saying that is like, so often we talk about your identity as related to where you are. And so perhaps the question that we need to be asking is, how is your national identity preventing your self awareness? How is it preventing you from really, truly belonging to yourself?

Chanté Thurmond  

Oh, that’s a good question. That is like, a very good question. Because who would you be without that is another one? 

Hanna Kim  

Exactly

Chanté Thurmond  

Who can we be together? You know, and I know that there are people who are developing technologies to allow us to explore that, which I’m really excited for. But in this moment in time, you know, we need to have the manual labor, trying to figure this out. And it makes me think I did put a note here, so I wouldn’t forget, but I used to be a big kind of follower and you know, appreciator of the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs concept. And then I read recently, it’s been Now a couple of years, but people have repeated this kind of message again, that Maslow was inspired by the Blackfoot Indians in their ancestral teachings, there’s multiple blogs on this, we can drop a link on this, but like, one of the elders in that community came back and said that they don’t necessarily think about like you said fahad, like, belonging, in the sense of like, physical safety, and sort of all those things that Maslow puts us, like, the very kind of base of his structure are things that we are inherently supposed to have, we should be coming into this world born, feeling like we belong, because we’re in community, like in the Blackfoot tradition, you’re lucky enough to be born into that community to that tribe. And so that’s a given, right? And so we’re not really thinking about individualism, we’re thinking about communal experiences, and community actualization versus individual self actualization. That’s one example. There’s got to be lots more that we don’t even know about. And the reason why we don’t know about them, is because predominantly white spaces, talk about their white experience and center that to be the default truth. And that’s not necessarily true. If you go and just take a trip around the world, you’ll find other folks who have never even really been a community in relation with white folks. There’s a lot of indigenous peoples who have protected their wisdom and their essence that way. So I don’t know if you all have any other thoughts about that? Because I know it’s a lot.

Hanna Kim

Um, I think one small thought I have was about the last point that you made is, when I study statelessness, a lot of the times we talk about the history of humankind, and how there still nomadic people out there, and the systems that now we have with biometrics and all these new systems that are coming up to control human movement, they don’t fit in with how we used to be. And so there are Roma people, there are nomadic people, there are people whose countries used to exist now they don’t, people who’ve become strangers in their own homes, you know, there’s just so many examples if we just broaden our perspectives, and it’s not difficult to really start to problematize borders, and border technologies and the origin of borders, why they have to be in the first place, you know, and so many times the origins of borders have racist and discriminatory beginnings. And, you know, for me, you know, I don’t really necessarily have to ponder about borders every day, but there are people that are concerned about their very safety and their very livelihood because of the technologies that are constructed at our borders. So that’s what’s coming up for me when you talk about other modes of community and belonging, and movement, and the need to control those kinds of movement with racist motives.

Chanté Thurmond

Yeah, and I always have more questions than I do answers to these things. And I just like advocating right now that we have a conversation about this. It’s so rich, there’s so much I don’t know. And it makes me think about this final kind of question. I know, we all talked about, which is why does this topic even matter at all? Like why are we spending time talking about this today? And, and why now? You know, because I think that I have my own assumptions and my own personal selfish reasons for wanting to explore this, but I’m wondering, and I’m assuming that a lot of people would probably be curious about that. So why does this topic matter? And why now?

fahad punjwani

Yeah, I’m tying in queerness. Again, here, I think one of the best gifts of being queer in this hetero patriarchal world, is that you have to actively reject the binary of gender and the stereotype of masculinity you have to define yourself outside of the system, and then you have to define yourself again. And then you have to define yourself again, you never have the false sense of reality of this is who I am. Because you know, change is what is real, you know, or as Octavia Butler would say, “God is change.” And that’s what being an immigrant is as well, right? Like you’re really intentionally defining and choosing place and the role of nationality and citizenship and not taking it as it is given to you, questioning it and choosing it. And I think that sort of critical lens is what is needed. You know, as a designer, that is what my work is all about, as someone who’s thinking about human centered design, when it comes to building new programs, new products, new strategies, that is sort of the critical lens that I’m bringing to my work around innovation around Human Centered Design, thinking critically about why we’re doing what we’re doing, and really believing truly in the inherent nature of change, and not giving it to the false sense of reality, or comfort of fixed reality.

Chanté Thurmond

Thank you for that, fahad. I mean, yes. I love it all. 

Hanna how about you? Why does this topic matter, and why now?

Hanna Kim

Yeah, I mean, when will this topic not matter? I think we’ll be wrestling with a question all of our lives, whether we consciously do it or not. I think it is truly a topic that stretches from individual to global, you know, from material things like a piece of plastic card that I have. It is really important, but it is so much more than that so it is stretching from material to spiritual. You know it is all of that and I really think about how relevant it is because, you know, first of all, I am currently working with stateless people and helping them, you know, pass the Stateless Protection Act. You know it is so real and I am dreaming of the time when we will all be crying together, you know, celebrating that they will have their safe pathway to become protected, people in this country.

And also it’s relevant especially I think in the time of the pandemic because we are sort of forced to ask these difficult questions, you know, when these sort of hate crimes and other ugly things that kind of surface to the top. So I think in some ways, I find that we, or I am hardwired to sort of start to point fingers at things that you know I’m not to blame or I think I’m not to blame. But also, I am hardwired to like seek deep connection with people that may not have obvious things in common with me like I love that sense of like finding that we are just one human race, one Earth citizen, you know. I think that is relevant because all of us have an opportunity to exercise our moral courage because we do have those sort of innate human desires to sort of like do either one. So, kind of in a global sense to just thinking about the exponentially growing number of refugees and expert say that a stateless child is born every 10 minutes. So just thinking about, like, the very personal things in the very global things and they all somehow are connected together and they are intertwined. I think that is how I find relevancy in this topic and sometimes it keeps me up at night. I’m going to be honest.

Chanté Thurmond

For sure, I mean right it’s one worth exploring and consistently coming back to. I’m recognizing that the unique roles and like you know positions and I didn’t know whether it be because of my identity and experience and luck. But as like a leader as a business owner as a parent as a community partner, all these various roles that I hold, I think it is my responsibility to be you know more than a global citizen to be a universal citizen. And to understand that, you know, yes, if my story can be so complex or the friends that I know have complexities and nuances us to their backstory that make you who you are, I have an obligation to try to make sure that the future we’re building together, whether it be literally in the community that I’m contributing to or in the workspaces that I weave in and out of, that we consider this when we’re hiring new people that we consider this when were looking for vendors or for global partners and things like that because if I don’t do it, who will? I can’t leave it up to folks so I think there’s a little bit of individual responsibility but also communally, and the only way we can do that is if we talk about it actively, you know. 

That’s why I’m gonna go back to just saying, again, thank you so much for sharing more about the Green Card experience because like this comes up every day for me, in terms of the workplace, you know, are we gonna hire folks who are immigrants did not legally here in this country? Can be hire them, should we hire them? If we don’t hire them who will? Like these are all things that, of course I want to be true because my family are immigants. I want somebody to give other folks an opportunity, but who’s going to change what that system experience looks like it’s up to us. Like we have two designers who can actually help us contribute to a new framework. So that’s one way. And I think that another insight…

fahad punjwani

Chanté

Chanté Thurmond

Go ahead

fahad punjwani

I want to say I think what Chanté’s saying also requires time, energy and resources. Like you have to give up some time, energy and resources to make those decisions. I am now working with The Darkest Horse, and that was not an easy decision for them. And The Darkest Horse showed up and said that you as a person are valuable, and we are willing to jump through hoops of the system that is created, recognizing that it is what it is. Versus saying, well, we have to find a designer who is able to work here, which when you read job descriptions, most companies have. So I want to recognize that it does take a lot of time, energy and resources and willpower to do these things.

Chanté Thurmond

That’s a great point. I think too, what we were thinking about in that, just kind of on a personal note here, is like that was our form of mutual aid for somebody in our community. And the more you spoke about that truth and your experience, the more we were feeling called to do something like who would we be? And how can I be proud of myself as a leader if I was hearing this need, and it’s something I actually have resource for in the moment. It’s not that I can fix all the problems, but in that moment, I had enough to share. And I think that’s something that we can think about just to kind of replicate in our personal lives, you know it doesn’t have to be that you give somebody $5,000 but what if you help them, opening the door for them or you made the connection to somebody else who did have that money. So again staying in community and talking is really, really important.

It’s been so lovely having this conversation with both of you. You’re brilliant, amazing people. Looking forward to more of these. Want to give us all an opportunity to plug ourselves on social so I’ll let Hanna and fahad do that and I’ll share The Darkest Horse and mine, and we’ll wrap up. 

Hanna Kim

So you can find me on Instagram user ID @whereisyoursting. And also you can email me, whereisyoursting@gmail.com 

fahad punjwani

Email is really the best way to reach me it’s fahad@thedarkesthorse.com, if you want to reach me on Instagram which I am not active too much it’s @punjwanifahad 

Chanté Thurmond

Thank you so much. Y’all want to follow us reach out to us for The Darkest Horse, our Twitter and Instagram handle is @TDHcast, and our email is hello@thedarkesthorse.com

My personal handle is @namastechante on both Twitter and Instagram, and my email is chante@thedarkesthorse.com

Thank you again for sharing your time with us, we’re looking forward to more conversations. Have a great day, everyone.

Chanté Thurmond 0:00
Hi, I’m Chanté Thurmond, co-host

Rada Yovovich 0:22
and this is Rada Yovovich, your other co-host.

Chanté Thurmond 0:24
This week we are talking about our favorite thing

Rada Yovovich 0:27
It is our favorite thing

Chanté Thurmond 0:28
We’re talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and belonging.

Rada Yovovich 0:34
Yeah, this is the stuff that anybody who has ever been to one of our events has ever attended one of our trainings for sure has probably heard us really talk about, we’re going to start by sharing some of the definitions, you know anybody’s listening this podcast probably has heard these words, has in their head what each of the means, but you know, Chante and I don’t do anything just regular so we want to make sure that we are really clear about our framework, our approach and how we sort of use these core concepts and so when we say each of those words, what we really mean by them.

Chanté Thurmond 1:05
Kick it off!

Rada Yovovich 1:06
Cool, so I’m going to start with just sort of the definitions here so when we say diversity, we talk about examining and questioning the makeup of a group. So who is in the room, what are the different kind of demographics identities etc that are actually here in this room around the table or whatever.

Equity is the fair and just treatment of all those members of that group. And this is where I always pause and I always distinguish between equity and equality, where equality is everybody gets the same thing, and equity is everybody gets what they need. Many people have heard this fence metaphor, right. So you imagine there’s a six foot tall fence, and you have people on your team that range from like four feet tall to seven feet tall, you know, everyone from six foot to seven foot. If the goal of success is being able to see over the fence. The people who are six feet and up, can do it no problem. Everybody else needs some help if they’re going to be successful as a part of the team. So it’s a question of like okay if we’re going to give them all stools, the equality route would be giving everybody the same stool maybe figure, average stool needed, and you just distribute that to everybody. And you know these people are seven feet tall, have absolutely no use for that stool, the people who have four feet tall, are like, Thanks for this it almost helps. And then there’s like a whole range in between and there’s some people that are actually helped with that average tool but equity would be giving each person exactly the height stool they need so they can successfully see over the fence. And so that difference is really important because the difference between equality and equity is important because people are different, right people have different needs people have different circumstances. And so there’s no sort of one size fits all for this stuff.

Inclusion is the intentional ongoing effort to ensure that diverse individuals are valued and fully participate and Shantae and I actually take this a step further, we talk about radical inclusion. And when we say that we sort of a challenging this old school definition of inclusion, that’s like this company is an umbrella, and we’re trying to bring as many different kinds of folks under that umbrella, you know, and saying like we still want a culture fit inside of that umbrella, but we want to be a lot of different kinds of people that can culture fit in. And our sort of radical inclusion approaches saying like, Well, what about a culture-add instead of a culture-fit, right? What about somebody who’s just outside the umbrella that because they come into the team the umbrella gets bigger, right, and now we have this thing that there’s one person or company that has something nobody else in our company has ever had. And that makes a new asset, rather than sort of a challenge to our norm. So instead of trying to get them to like assimilate and break in. We’re trying to say, oh cool what’s now possible for us, because we have this person and so like really radical inclusion is celebrating, not just like accepting or tolerating difference but celebrating exactly what is unique about each person on the team specifically because that’s sort of how they are contributing to the innovation, creativity, and collective genius of the community.

And so last is access. Access is giving equitable opportunity to everyone along the continuum of human ability and experience making space for the characteristics that each person brings, right? Can they actually show up like can they actually get there and kind of typical a classic experience that’s physical space, right, so we think a lot about like ADA accessibility, but really when you think about using your products when you think about the technology when you think about what languages you’re using, and not just like what languages but what language, like what jargon and stuff like those are all accessibility things too. So those are kind of our like D, E, I, and A terms that we use so much.

Chanté Thurmond 4:45
Yes, and I like to throw in just one more. So we mentioned belonging. And we know this is a newer buzzword, but folks are certainly using it sometimes we have folks who call themselves the Director of Diversity and Inclusion and belonging, your

Rada Yovovich 5:00
Chante loves belonging, I mean I love belonging too but Chante’s our belonging cheerleader, so Chante I would love to hear sort of what is it about belonging that you love so much.

Chanté Thurmond 5:08
I think the way we kind of landed on this Rada, we described it as the consequence of inclusion, I think you actually said this. You said inclusion is like what you Rada might be doing, and belonging might be how I am experiencing it. For example, it’s like you can go through great lengths to make somebody feel included, you can do all these certain things, asking them, but what kind of foods they like what kind of music they want to listen to. Do they want to have parties, but you can’t necessarily determine how they’re going to interpret that and part of it is actually their lived experience and how they’re showing up so, belonging can change from day to day, your technology and your inclusion, and the acts that you’re doing that can change too but a lot of times it’s like we’re doing things to make people feel welcome, but you can’t always guarantee, they’re gonna feel that way.

Rada Yovovich 5:10
I hear it as like inclusion as this like intentional ongoing effort and belonging as if you’re doing it right, That it’s what all these folks that you’re trying to include actually perceive the space right they’re like, okay, because you are including me I feel like I belong. Does that sound right.

Chanté Thurmond 6:09
Yes.

Rada Yovovich 6:10
Yeah? Cool. And so the next step we was talking about when we’re talking about these things is, y’all got the order wrong people start with diversity, they’re like okay we got to get diversity and so like titles of people or diversity councils or things like that, it’s like, people start with diversity and more and more forward thinking organizations are starting with inclusion, and say, we’re gonna talk less about diversity, we’re gonna talk about inclusion, and we think that’s correct, but we actually even go a step further, and so the order that we talked about it, is start with accessibility. We would put “A” first and say, you know folks can’t access you, it’s a non starter, right? If they can’t even get to you, whether that’s because of the ways that you accept applications. If we’re in a 3D space if it’s because you have to own a car, or take an Uber or something to get to your office, that’s a whole bunch of people that can’t access you and no matter what inclusion you do, they will never get there because they can’t even get over that first hurdle.

Then we talk about inclusion and equity together. So it’s accessibility and then inclusion and equity because once they show up. They need to know that they’re going to be treated fairly, and they’re going to not only be sort of tolerated but celebrated a chance to feel like they belong, because the perspectives and skills that they bring, what we argue is that the combination of those things, leads to diversity as an outcome. I’m gonna say that again. If you get accessibility, inclusion, and equity right, then the consequences are belonging and diversity, because if you’re actually creating access and equity and inclusion for all these types of people, then those types of people are going to find your jobs, they’re going to be able to find it, they’re going to be able to access it, they’re going to be treated right and they’re going to show up because the best talent. Look sounds and needs a whole lot of different types of ways. And if you actually make space for them and build the systems that treat them right, then you get diversity as a consequences.

Chanté Thurmond 8:00
Yes, being go. Which brings me to my next point, we often joke about this rather that we want to ban the D word at work, we want to just get rid of it, it’s a bad word. And sometimes we’re very serious like we know that our biggest advice to these leaders, especially the CEO and the Chief Talent Officer or the Head of Diversity and Inclusion. We want you to understand that you have to stop using diversity as your leading metric. Okay. And it almost always leads you down this pathway of focusing on vanity metrics, and it kind of deters you or allows you to escape the root cause of why your company is experiencing a lack of diversity in the first place.

Rada Yovovich 8:45
Yeah, that’s a beautiful point because whenever we ask companies like why do you care about diversity, they say all the right things right, they’re like we know that our solutions will be better. Right and we know that our people will get more creative and our people will feel more supported and diversity in terms of those numbers does not actually get to those things, right, it’s the inclusion, it’s the equity, it’s like them actually being treated correctly. And seeing that they belong, that creates those consequences so aiming for the numbers actually doesn’t get you to where you’re trying to go to.

Chanté Thurmond 9:17
Right. And if we can just get you to sort of change your framework and the way you think about it. And if I just said for the day you can’t use the word diversity, when you’re talking about these things. It forces you to recalibrate and just think like, oh okay, you’re right, I actually was just conflating them I was mushing everything that you’re just describing in terms of inclusion and accessibility and equity and belonging, under the term diversity and conflating it which makes it really kind of complicated and this is why I think we have an issue with some companies for Google, right, I’ll use them as example they were the first ones to highlight and popularize a diversity report, and people were rushing to do the same thing and they were like, oh I need to go do a diversity report, but what that didn’t allow you to explain was how your company actually is working in terms of Inclusion Accessibility equity belonging like what things are you doing to create that environment that would allow for diversity to actually occur and to be celebrated, so you can’t necessarily articulate that and highlight that in an empirical data report, you can moreso do that in a narrative. So this is just something we’re trying to really get leaders to think about and to be cautious not to follow the Google trend. Okay, this is where we want you to think radically and outside the box, and for any of you listeners out there, if you feel strongly that inclusion is not a veneer, you don’t want to Window dress it. This is your opportunity to start rethinking the order of diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and belonging at your company.

Rada Yovovich 10:53
Chante I love this stuff because that’s the right thing to do. It brings greater peace and love, and community, but we also love it because of the business consequences. We’re also here because we’re trying to help these organizations succeed, right, and so this brings us to one of our favorite obsessions, the future of work. We spent a lot of time thinking like, what’s going to happen down the road, what’s already happening a little bit faster than we meant. And, you know, we’re already seeing for so many business roles that geographic location is mattering less and less as we shift more and more of our jobs to remote and virtual work. And what that actually means is that organizations are competing for their literal world of talent. When you don’t have to be constrained to a five mile radius around a physical office, then you’re opening up the field to the whole world, and it becomes more obvious that the very talent will like I said, look, sound, and work a lot of different ways. And if you’re not figuring out how to attract, retain and fully activate that talent, your competition will and the limitations of your workforce will directly inform your ability to thrive in that marketplace because it’s pretty it’s not just because you’re trying to make good stock photos that have a lot of different type of folks, it’s because, like, other people are gonna figure it out. Yeah, and then they’re gonna womp ya.

Chanté Thurmond 12:15
That’s right. You heard it here first. Hopefully, last time. So let’s take accessibility then as an example to show what we actually mean let’s kind of walk through. So traditionally, people think about the ADA accessibility guidelines and things like that, when we’re talking about like physical office space, things such as like entrance ramps and parking spaces and, you know, do you have an elevator, but in the future of work we’re talking about digital accessibility, right, we want to know virtually what that means for folks to show up, and to use the same kind of technology, regardless if they can manipulate a mouse, or if they have vision, and we also make a lot of assumptions around people’s ability to hear and to have things like WiFi, to not have children running and roaming and fighting in the background, or that they’re in like a safe physical domestic environment, all of these things we’re making lots of assumptions on, And those all fall under the umbrella of accessibility.

Rada Yovovich 13:16
Yeah we have a collaborator named fahad punjwani, who is brilliant and does a lot of really cool design work. I remember that he once explained to us this idea of accessibility, he used the example of designing a product for someone who only has the use of one arm, and he was talking about how there’s actually a lot of different ways to only have the use of one arm right there’s like the super temporary that’s like I right now can only use one arm because my other arm is holding my child, right, or maybe keeping my two twin five year old boys from fighting. In Chante’s case, so I’ve only got one arm in a very temporary sense to a little bit less temporary where it’s like you know I pulled a muscle this morning, and so for today, I can’t really use my left arm, to a little bit longer term where you know I broke a bone. And so for the next six to eight weeks, I can’t use my left arm to a very permanent sense where I may only have one arm, right, and in that case, that’s another instance where I only have the use of one arm, right, and so I bring that up because when you solve one of those, you solve for all of them, right, and you know we think about like neuro diversity and hearing and when you solve for those kinds of challenges you actually are also creating accessibility for a bunch of other folks who need the same solution but for different reasons,

Chanté Thurmond 14:36
I’m like snapping. That was some great wisdom that you know fahad passed on to us that we’d love to talk about and just a shameless plug here, we actually have a workshop that we lead with fahad on that, though, inquiring minds, please hit us up.

Rada Yovovich 14:55
It’s called signing for inclusion, and it’s pretty awesome.

Chanté Thurmond 14:58
Yeah, we did not plan that but I just had to say. Sorry, Rada.

Rada Yovovich 15:04
Absolutely. So where does that leave us as we kind of move toward wrapping up maybe we give some wisdom about good metrics to use

Chanté Thurmond 15:11
Yeah, so I’ll shift a little bit I want to think about a few that have come immediately to my mind, and that first one is like employee engagement, or employee sentiment. One particular that like a lot of companies should be familiar with is your net promoter score or your NPS score. A lot of times we’re doing that for our clients and like the services or the products and technologies that we provide, but if you’re not doing that for your employees, which I know a lot of companies, for example, HR and benefit solution companies might offer this to you already, they might, but if you’re not doing this, there’s tons of free templates right now that will allow you to just download an NPS survey, or a questionnaire, and start to do this regularly with your employees. It’s simple, easy worth it.

Rada Yovovich 15:59
Yeah well that engagement, shows us so much right like it shows, not just satisfaction and stuff like that but like how folks are showing up right like it’s such a direct tie to absenteeism presenteeism, productivity, and like capacity for creativity right this is how you actually kind of assess whether people are going to show up with their full selves to work is like what is their engagement, it’s also like the closest you get to like a belonging metric.

Chanté Thurmond 16:25
Yeah I was gonna say that for those who have access, depending on the size everything, which you should, but if you’re providing insurance, you know, it’s worth it to find out what the common ailments are and like how often people are using your health and wellness benefits. We have a healthy workforce, that’s another metric that we don’t necessarily talk about that might uncover what’s really going on in terms of Inclusion Accessibility equity and belongingness,

Rada Yovovich 16:49
yeah I think there’s a tendency to start making decisions about what causes absenteeism, and you never know what’s going on, like if they’re a caretaker, or, you know if they have a chronic illness, there’s a bunch of different things that can go on there but I agree that there’s a lot that can be learned if you are managing your own risk population in your health care coverage that you can get a lot of information about like what kinds of support from that perspective, your population needs.

Chanté Thurmond 17:13
And that if you don’t know why people are actually not coming to work, you might want to start asking them.

Rada Yovovich 17:20
Yeah.

Chanté Thurmond 17:21
Another one I want to mention right now is in terms of attrition versus retention, you know, are you paying attention to how long people actually stay at your company. And I would also challenge you to really think about the putting in air quotes here “minority” identifying employees, if this is truly of interest to you and you want to make sure that you’re focusing on black, indigenous people of color, women, trans folks you want to make sure that you’re paying attention to the attrition versus the retention rate at your company.

Rada Yovovich 17:54
Yeah and I think along the very similar lines, is performance assessment compensation. Career advancements, again, across those demographics and identities and saying, Okay, is there a difference like we’ve got partners that are people analytics platforms that actually create your ability to easily track these metrics and say how do we rate people across different demographics, is there’s any kind of correlation. Can we do an equity audit for compensation, I know that if you don’t have a good people analytics platform, then maybe you only have gender on a binary and maybe racial identities documented, you know, those tend to be the first ones, start there.

Chanté Thurmond 18:32
Can you also give him an example like how we say gender on a binary?

Rada Yovovich 18:37
Yeah, super quick, you know, a lot of these organizations will tie into your sex assigned at birth, or whatever, sex or gender marker is legally assigned to you which many of us recognize now that in this year 2020 There’s more than just a binary of either male or female right there can be folks that are trans that are still on the binary, but have transitioned and therefore like their marker might not be the same. There’s also folks who are non binary right, so don’t necessarily identify as male or female, so that kind of traditional metric can be a little misleading in that context.

Chanté Thurmond 19:13
Yes, just worth mentioning since we’re on the accessibility right like that’s yeah, I feel like a low hanging fruit indication number one for Rada and I usually if I look at your forums and like you’re generally only asking if somebody is male or female, I’m like, Okay, you failed,

Rada Yovovich 19:32
and a fun fact that male female and other is a step in the right direction but it’s literally very othering so that’s a whole other conversation that we got a great length but looking at the performance assessment like how you’re rating people, how you’re compensating people and how people are getting promoted across various demographics is some good metrics also be looking at.

Chanté Thurmond 19:51
Yeah, a few for those who are in the talent and or recruitment field you might appreciate this. I think it’s worth mentioning that we think about the candidate pipeline demographic and trying to figure out how diverse and putting that again in your boats that pipeline is also it’s really important to think about the interviewer demographics like Do you have any diversity there. If not, think about expanding and diversifying your interviewer panel, and then also thinking about the source of hire. Are you using diverse channels to help you attract and retain that talent.

Rada Yovovich 20:25
Yeah, I think there’s a couple different ways we talk about diverse channels to write this like one piece is the sort of obvious one where it’s like, I’m going to go to like National Black right which is like a black professional conference, or to Latinx sources or to LGBTQIA+ et cetera you know like, you can kind of go to these populations and go together, or it’s also this other piece of like, are you just diversifying right meaning like you are going to a number of different sources you’re not just getting all of them from one channel, but different folks again could be gathering in different places so there’s sort of two different ways to cut that idea of using diverse channels to attract talent,

Chanté Thurmond 21:07
Yeah it’s a good point. Thank you, Rada.

Rada Yovovich 21:09
Yeah. And I would say there’s also some really interesting equity related items in the recruiting cycle that also inform the candidate experience right because you got to keep in mind that this is their first taste of how your organization works, and I’ve been a part of so many organizations where it’s like HR just runs a totally different way than the rest of the company. And in a lot of those instances, the rest of the company is really fast and HR is really slow or vice versa, you know, and so really trying to be thoughtful about how are we representing the employee experience through the process of recruiting, interviewing getting hired in the team right because that’s going to have a huge impact from the start, on whether people feel like they belong or whether it’s the right place for them to come, whether they actually want to come on board.

Chanté Thurmond 21:57
Yeah, that’s a good point. So a couple that like immediately kind of my mind as you’re saying that, for example might be the interview to offer time but that window, how long is it also the offer acceptance rate is interesting, and the onboarding, how long are people like kind of hanging out in this limbo phase onboarding I think is really important

Rada Yovovich 22:17
Awesome yeah, so this has been a taste of how we challenge organizations to think beyond just the old school diversity approach to address the sort of upstream leading metrics that contribute to the downstream diversity and consequential business results, and innovation that that diversity drives. So hopefully this has piqued your interest a little bit. Got your brain working, thinking about like, what would be the right metrics for us, instead of just looking at the numbers of people that we have in a room, and how can we be actually getting to those objectives in a little bit more meaningful and intelligent strategic ways,

Chanté Thurmond 22:57
and we’d love to get people’s opinions and commentary. So, please, we definitely want to open up the floodgates if you will.

Rada Yovovich 23:05
Absolutely yeah for questions, comments, feedback about all these ideas about this podcast about working with us, whatever it is, please send us a note at hello@thedarkesthorse.com

Chanté Thurmond 23:20
And this is Chante, if you want to contact me directly, please feel free, email me at chante@thedarkesthorse.com or drop me a line on Twitter @namastechante

Rada Yovovich 23:31
and I’m Rada, and you can call me directly at rada@thedarkesthorse.com or hit me up on Twitter @rada_why. You can also find more on Twitter, Instagram, with the handle @TDHcast or TheDarkestHorseCast on Facebook.

Chanté Thurmond 23:50
One last party favor. If you haven’t done so already, please please please please take some time to rate us like our show, and by all means share this podcast episode with folks in your network folks you work with friends. We want people to understand and learn more about our framework and interesting work that we get to do every day.

Rada Yovovich 24:10
Yeah, spread the word have some conversations.

Chanté Thurmond 24:13
Yes, well, that’s us The Darkest Horse podcast we’re signing out.

Bye!